Subway Pride - Here's Your Lesson

[Garebear]

Here’s the product:

Subway Pride:

Description: Celebrate equality in life by supporting the LGBTQ+ community! It is important to give support to every human in the world regardless of their gender. Here in Subway Pride, a massive rainbow is painted on the ceiling to give support to the community and a reminder to be kind to one another.

While I honestly don’t mind the actual setup it’s something different and nice to see. But a couple of things ring very true about this. First of all showing support for the LGBTQ+ is not just about gender we all have gender. Secondly if you were truly wanting to show support for a community you would of done 2 things.

1. Done your research. The colors in the pride flag are specific They started in a specific year and have changed throughout the years, so one could be understanding if the colors were different, but to not even get the base colors (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet/purple) in that order correct shows that you have really no knowledge of the community. And if you are indeed trying to be supportive of the “gender” aspect you would have included the light pink and blue colors as they represent our trans brothers and sisters, also the addition of black and brown has been included to re-enforce that black lives matter. But the base colors that have been around for years, are not even present.

2. Seeing as how this is showing support during the month of June for pride will any portions of the proceeds be going to anything or anyone in the LGBTQ+ realm that is uplifting Artists in the 3D realm that are Unseen or Unheard? Charities that could use help? Or is the company that is selling your products doing something in that regard?

Things to think about.

Additionally, the fact that this passed Daz’s inspection to go out in June as celebrating pride shows you how much knowledge and care is actually shown for the community. Especially with the gender statement. Pride is many things but labeling it as accepting everyone’s gender?? There is so much more to it than that. Just because it’s a rainbow does mean it’s a pride flag.

[jakiblue]

I was curious about this one, but didn’t want to ask questions in the daz forums cos I had a feeling it might have turned into a shit fight, so I’m glad you posted here. Also, I was unsure whether the question I had would have been seen as “offensive”, which is absolutely NOT my intention. I support the LGBTQ+ community fully and have for a very very long time, but I will add that I don’t know much about any recent events or as you mentioned, the pride flag changing over the years, so I was hesitant to ask in case someone thought I was being willfully ignorant. My little sister is gay and we ALL stand proudly with her (and when I say “little”, I mean she’s 33 but she is still little to me LOL).

I was a bit uneasy when I saw this product. Does putting a rainbow on something mean you support Pride, or that you can call it a product that supports Pride? Is just a rainbow enough? Does it a feel a bit exploitative to those who are a part of the LGBTQ+ community? It just left me feeling a bit…cold, I guess…like, make a subway but hey, let’s slap on a rainbow to get extra sales and show how cool we are! Does it come across like that?

I dunno. Can I ask these questions without sounding like some ancient old person who doesn’t have a clue?

[mjc3d]

Ask away. There’s no offense.

The original pride flag was created in the 70s and actually had had Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple, and Pink.

Pink was removed purely as a practical matter because the fabric was too expensive and hard to come by.

It stayed Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, and Purple up until a few years ago when everybody started to get woke and there was more of a push for inclusiveness.

(The letters changed too. In the 80s is GLBT and changed to LGBT in the 90s and LGBTQ in the early 2000s and now LGBTQIA+ in a bid to be more inclusive.)

But Garebear brings up a pretty good point. It’s more insulting to half-ass something than it is to not do something at all.

My expectations from DAZ are so low though that nothing really shocks or surprises me any more.

Anyone who’s not straight and not a man has pretty much always been a second-class citizen, and those of us who are LGBTQ have fared even worse over the years. And it’s only gotten worse these past 2 years since “Tafi” bought them out.

I bought it because it’s a fairly decent subway set not for the pride components. Frankly, I’m sick of Corporate Pride. Companies claiming to support LGBTQ rights only during the month of June so they can milk whatever little money we have in our collective wallets.

[jakiblue]

Don’t get me started on what I think about DAZ - we’d be here all night. They started going downhill once they kicked Chris and Dan off the Board, and it just multiplied and got worse when they did that big sweep a couple of years back and got rid of some core personall such as Tony the art director et al. I don’t have a damn good word to say about DAZ anymore, and haven’t for some time. They are simply a store I shop at now, and it’s one I shop less and less anyway. They suck. Seriously. SUCK THE BIG ONE as we used to say as kids, back in the Stone Age. And honestly, I don’t care if anyone reading this now decides to not like me anymore, or backstab me on FB cos of what I’m saying.

Right. There. Ha.

Back in the 80s, I worked in late night hospitality (before I entered the Hell of retail). I knew more gay men than I did straight men in that industry. Back then, it was just gay men, gay women, and what we called back then “transexuals” (I’m aware I think, that is considered an offensive term now?). It wasn’t the “LGBTQ+” community back then, it was just the “gay community”. (oh and drag queens of course, who were wonderful!) Then about 15 years ago - actually, closer to 20 - I moved out of the city and to a very very small country town where I knew nobody and absolutely did not have a thriving gay community, so I lost touch with everyone I knew, and ended up surrounded by a thriving staight community. Sigh. Which is the long-arse way of me saying that I have no idea nowadays about the correct “terminology” and have absolutely no-one to ask about it. (I could ask my lil sister obviously, but she lives a long way from me, and we really only chat on messenger occasionally except when there’s a big family gathering at xmas, which sometimes, only half of us lot can get to). Oh, and two years ago, i moved to an even SMALLER and more remote town and I honestly have not met a single gay person up here.

So…what’s the “IA” stand for in LGBTQ? And do you think that Subway Pride product should have just been a subway, and not tacked on an obviously incorrect rainbow to claim it as a “Pride” subway? Am I right in my uneasy feeling, that it’s just being done for the “feels”?

[mjc3d]

I get it. I do.

I came out when I was 18 in 1990 when I went to college and hell I have a hard time keeping up with things now.

You know LGBT. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender. The OG “4”. (It used to be GLBT but the L & G were switched to rightfully elevate the visibility of our lesbian sisters.)

Q was added in the 90s to bring visibility to our Queer brothers and sisters, and Queer is basically anyone that’s not straight, but that doesn’t otherwise identify as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Trans.

I and A were added to bring visibility to our Intersex friends and family, and A for those that are Asexual, because Asexuals have it almost just as bad as the rest of us if we’re being honest. That may seem counter-intuitive, but it’s true.

So now you see LGBTQIA+ with the plus-sign at the end to encompass the rest of the rainbow.

With regards to transsexuals that’s the natural end-result of an evolving language.

Calling a trans man or trans woman “a transsexual” is not necessarily seen as a pejorative (depending on how old you are because everyone recognizes that old habits die hard, but context is still key here) but it not necessarily seen as a polite reference either; because it implies that a person is defined by their “transsexualness” and that’s rarely the case. I’m not aware of any human (gay, straight, trans, whatever) that is defined by their gender identity or sexual orientation.

It’s almost like calling someone autistic rather than saying they have autism if that makes any sense.

In fact, outside of their close personal circles, most trans guys and trans women don’t want to be referred to as trans at all. They identify as a man or a woman first. They just happen to be trans (whereas you and I are cisgender).

[jakiblue]

Is “queer” a term that really only “queer” people can use? I remember it as being very derogative - it was a cruel word to use to denote the gay community. Or is it more, it can be used if you’re not saying it in a sexist/slur way? I looked up “intersex” to see what that meant. I get that one now. I think it’s “pansexual”, “asexual” and “non-binary” that I’m still not completely understanding. I’ve looked them up, but I don’t quite understand it. But then, understanding isn’t really needed, by me, I guess? Accepting is more important. I haven’t used ‘transexual’ since I found out it wasn’t correct. I use ‘trans’ or ‘transitioning’ but that’s obviously only if I’m referring to it in a conversation - I don’t walk up to anyone and ask if they are trans. LOL. God, that’d be an awful thing to do.

Anyway, I feel I’ve gotten off track from Garebear’s original post. Sorry! It was just good to be able to express how I felt about that product, without worrying the forum would implode…like it probably would have at daz. Or been locked.

Thanks!

[mjc3d]

It’s not like the “N” word but as with most things in life (and especially language) context is key.

30-40+ years ago the word “queer” referred to anybody who wasn’t straight and you saw straight people referring to lesbians and gays as “queer”. Gays and lesbians would often refer to themselves as queer too.

Before that “queer” basically referred to anything that was odd, strange, or unusual if I remember right.

But today? Context is key.

“My husband and I had a wonderful time watching the New York City Queer Men’s Chorus show!” is totally fine since “queer” in this context refers to the name of a choral group.

“What can I do for you, queer boy?” would not be okay, since “queer” in this context is used as a pejorative, and meant to insult the recipient.

“I’ll be back later on today, I’m going to go watch all the queer freaks marching and their floats!” would not be okay since “queer” in this context is used as a pejorative, and meant as an insult.

“I’ll be back later on today, I’m going to go watch the town’s annual Queer Pride Festival parade!” would be okay, since “queer” in this context is referring to the name of the “pride festival”.

It would seem odd for a straight person to refer to anyone that’s LGBTQ as “queer” today. I just can’t think of that many social settings or examples where that word would organically come up in a conversation that wouldn’t be insulting or demeaning.

Here’s my advice: do you plan to use the word with love or hate? If it’s love, use it as much as you want. If it’s hate then it’s probably not a good idea. But if you really want to be safe, because there are a lot more sensitive people out here than I certainly am, then I’d probably just not use the word. That way there aren’t any misunderstandings.

You will certainly see gay and trans men (and women) refer to themselves as queer, and you will definitely hear it used as a verb, adverb, and adjective within the LGBTQ community both online and in real life, and within the community there really are no rules because it’s expected (and accepted) that that word is not pejorative when used amongst ourselves.

But as an outsider? I’d tread carefully. Context is key, and the meaning and intent behind your message is the deciding factor. It’s not the “N” word, but words can be weapons just as well depending on how they are cast.

[jakiblue]

thank you, that’s what I was thinking. Nah, I don’t use it (unless like you say, it’s in the title of something) - it still feels like it has the connotations of the old use to me and it doesn’t feel right or kind or nice to me to use it.

[phezian]

Don’t blame the creator of this model for the rainbow. They copied Stockholm’s subway station’s rainbow.

The Stockholm rainbow is intended represent the Stockholm Pride Festival.

[Garebear]

Cute. That being said, it is still a problem. You personally I am sure had to Google this because you were checking to see what the uproar was about which is fine. But give credit where credit is due, and allow it to be told why it is relevant to Pride and NOT about gender. Where it came from. What was the inspiration. The colors are still not correct, and without any indication as to the meaning the creator absolutely does get to be critiqued.

As a 43 year old gay man. I appreciate people showing support, but when something feels wrong to me there is a reason and I will say something about it. Here’s a rainbow in a subway station let’s celebrate pride buy my stuff and celebrate gender, does get my harsh critique rather than a huge pride festival that happens every year that shows their inclusivity to a community I belong to by literally everywhere being gorgeously decorated in all colors to show the world how they embrace everyone. But sure who cares right? Fuck it. It’s just a subway with a rainbow for fucking 3D characters.

Cool. What I am saying is, that’s the type of response I expected. And the type of response we always get instead of people actually wanting to learn and grow. Because people don’t want to see the bigger issues. Take from it what you will.

[phezian]

I give people the benefit of the doubt. I applaud any inclusiveness in today’s divisive world. Anyone, person or corporation, who sides with Pride, even to profit from it, risks being cancelled by up to a quarter of their customers.

Corporations openly embracing inclusiveness may be doing it to make news for doing the right thing, but they lose customers when they do. Sure, they hope to make up the difference by attracting new customers, but it’s a risk.

For every corporation that publicly supports Pride, for whatever reason, they’re enforcing the idea that all genders and orientations are equal in the world.

Burger King’s chicken sandwich promotion will slide the public consciousness towards acceptance. There will be subconscious changes in seeing something so public being supportive of Pride.

Every effort matters. Sure, it seems Clacy is trying to make money. This is literally his job. The subway station is a valid tie-in to Pride Month. It’s a copy of a poorly executed rainbow, sure. He’s trying to profit from Pride, sure. Again, that’s a good thing. As the world sees more publicly visible support of Pride, the more the world realizes it’s right to accept people of different genders and orientations as not just okay, but normal.

If you jump down the throat of anyone who tries to offer support, no matter how misled their effort, you’re not helping the cause.

Businesses making money selling pride oriented things are being supportive even if they have the primary motive of making money.

At a farmers market, would you buy corn from someone who was also selling confederate flags?

So the guys selling Pride stuff are siding with you, willing to lose the business of the prejudiced.

Being judgy about the people you’ll accept support from or the kind of support you’ll appreciate…well…

Appreciate retailers selling pride gear less than the folks that march alongside you in solidarity: sure.

Until Pride is redundant with normal society, we should take all the support we can get.

[Garebear]

Asking people to understand what they are supporting and the reasons behind them is by far not jumping down anyone’s throat. I did say I actually like the subway that was made, it was quite well done, but blind acceptance is not always welcome. It’s misguided.

My original post is about teaching and knowing who and why you are celebrating. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions for sure, but I do and will continue to teach any and everyone who steps into my lane with misguided representation because we have a history and we have rights and we have voices. And forgetting why things happened the way they did can cause for things to repeat themselves. Whether anyone likes to admit it or not .

So go earn your money. Let the companies and the people earn what they want. Express yourself. But there will be lessons to be taught along the way.

[phezian]

There is nothing ignoble in offering to help others understand things the way you do. If you want to spend hours teaching people the difference between gender, identity and orientation, go for it.

The only issue I have with the subway is the misuse of ‘Gender’ in the description. More specifically, the use of gender without the “and orientation” we’d expect to follow. But I understand that modern language is still adapting to appropriate terminology. I am still happy Clacy made the subway. Good for him for offering it for sale. Clearly Clacy knows Pride isn’t a matter of male and female. I don’t even know all the words associated with sexual identity and I’m an author.

I can guarantee that everyone who looked at that description knew what Clacy meant to say.

Just read this thread and no one seems to know what ‘queer’ means. IN LGBTQIA It Aligns closer to the T and the I. T,Q and I are genders. Queer is more a Gender Identity than a sexual orientation. Intersex is anatomically not exclusively male or female. Queer is non-anatomically non-binary. Not all Transgender people are heterosexual. Not all Queer people are gay. In this context, Queer doesn’t fit into Gay or Lesbian labels. Queer people tend to also identify as bi or pansexual but may be asexual.

Queer is still also synonymous with gay, but that’s not the context in LGBTQIA. To some people queer is a less restrictive form of bisexual. To other’s its the fall-back word for people who know they’re not hetero, but don’t feel any of the other labels apply.

[mjc3d]

@phezian

Just read this thread and no one seems to know what ‘queer’ means. IN LGBTQIA It Aligns closer to the T and the I. T,Q and I are genders.

To be fair, “queer” pre-dates GLBT and pre-dates the “Q” in LGBTQ. It means something completely different today than what it originally meant in the 1960s and what it meant in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and certainly today and beyond.

And I’m certain that “queer” will mean something completely different tomorrow.

It’s not that I or anyone doesn’t know what queer means, it’s just that it means different things to different people (and different contexts).

I may not have articulated it all that well but that’s the point I was trying to get across.

But you’re right in the larger sense. Language is always evolving. I barely know what yolo is and don’t even ask me to tell you what a yeet is. Hell, I thought it was a vegetable.

[phezian]

That’s totally fair.

Yeet is what my 13 year old daughter yells when she throws her d20 at me after it rolls a 1.

[RandoBean]

I’m glad Daz is trying to be inclusive. Of course, guidance and feedback on how best to do it is important. I understand op’s feelings and that it seemed like a shoddy, exploitative product. And that sucks. But I hope the fact that it’s a real place, which exists and is also trying to be inclusive, however clumsily, is at least a little better than “the PA didn’t do his homework.” As society changes, those who do not belong to the LGBTQIA+ community have a lot to learn, myself included. I am bi with gay and non binary friends, but I’m sure I still need to learn lots . But I like to think at least they are trying. It will take time, but I do think that things will get better and overall seem less offensive. I would find a way to tell Daz about the incorrect flag in a way that doesn’t put thier back up. A "head’s up, this is wrong and made me not want to buy it. But I am interested in better products that support the community, " might be helpful. Maybe it will lead them to ask more questions of the next product that comes along with a pride rainbow. Just my 2 cents.

[mjc3d]

@RandoBean

I am bi with gay and non binary friends…

And much love to my bi brothers and sisters too! Talk about a group of people misunderstood and often maligned by everyone. Gay, straight, and lesbian.

[Garebear]

I just want to say this conversation we are having right now. The words that are being spoken in this forum this is all that needs to happen. Just by having these conversations is all it takes to just simply get people to better understand everyone’s perspective. Things do get heated from time to time. I did not post in DAZ’s forum because it was super early where I live at the time and I came here because this forum for me is a little more of a place to be open about things and to share my thoughts and when it is early in the morning and I’m having my coffee, sometimes I’m not as subdued as I would like to be but I don’t apologize for what I said just hopefully the way I came across, I do appreciate any and all support from everyone. I swear I am not some crazy person running around (or keyboard problem seekers) just trying to find problems with everything, to be honest I actually tend to hate those people lol. Just this in particular is my life, some things hits a little to close to home, some things just feel like they need just some clarity.

Getting the message out, seeing the colors by major corporations supporting or at least attempting to support the community does at least push for more acceptance and normality. I came out when I was 16. I was then outed by one of my few friends in school because she had an issue with it, by the end of the day the entire school knew I was gay. I was the first person to publicly come out in my school. Not by choice. I lived in a town with less than 2,000 people in it. My graduating class had 33 kids. So you can imagine the type of area I grew up in. Name calling, bullying, threats, everything you can imagine. But I graduated at the age of 17 in 1995 and then I found a LGBTQIA+ youth group about an hour from where I lived, after being a part of the group for a year I became a facilitator for that group for several years. That group helped me form so many life long friendships and knowledge I don’t know what I would of done without it.

The world has changed so much since then and things are readily more available for people and we have progressed so much further than where we were then or even 50 years ago. But when Trump became President, I think it was a rude awakening for many people to understand how quickly things have the probability of changing. While Handmaid’s Tale is a great Dystopian Novel and show on Hulu, the thought of something like that happening is honestly not as far-fetched as people think. Yes that’s waaay out in left field, but when the rights of people are taken away things can happen pretty quick. Anyway just wanted to share a bit of my history and why I share things and want to continue to help people open their minds to the community and the struggles we have had to endure and still face.

Thank you guys for being the allies that we need. Also YES more visibility to the BI folks out there! I swear you guys probably get more flack from everyone then most groups.

[bytescapes]

@mjc3d

To be fair, “queer” pre-dates GLBT and pre-dates the “Q” in LGBTQ. It means something completely different today than what it originally meant in the 1960s and what it meant in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and certainly today and beyond.

And I’m certain that “queer” will mean something completely different tomorrow.

Language evolves. For instance, “gay” – in addition to the sense of “bright, cheerful” – was used in Victorian England to describe prostitutes. If a woman was said to be “gay” it meant that she was selling sex.

As for ‘queer’, it was a term of abuse when I was growing up. Since it’s been ‘reclaimed’, I’ve heard it used for self-reference by people who are gay, lesbian or bi, by sex workers, and by people who are into kink. It could almost be an umbrella term to replace the alphabet-soup of LGBTQIA … except that it comes loaded with so much unpleasant baggage from having been used to abuse people for so long.

Getting back to DAZ, I have very mixed feelings about their recent embrace of LGBTQIA themes. On the one hand, I’m glad they’re making the effort and providing some representation to people who aren’t part of a heteronormative worldview. I have to give them points for that at least (but why did it have to take so long?) At the same time, something about it feels really … meh. There are honorable exceptions: some of the trans characters they’ve put out lately look to be high-quality. But all the Pride paraphernalia just looks crude and clunky to me: in terms of realism or aesthetic appeal, it’s back in the Victoria 3 years. It’s as if they went to their house artists and told them “Here, crank this out, but don’t spend too much time on it.” They can sell you a demon or an elf that’s practically photorealistic, but everything with the LGBTQIA stamp on it just looks like ass. Er … and not in a good way.

Plus it all seems really awkward. Obviously, it’s hard to do something that’s visibly lesbian/gay/bi because Michael and Vicky have always been as queer as you want them to be. Short of pushing out some poses showing same-sex affection, there’s not a lot they can do to demonstrate good-will. Which is why we have Pride flags all over the place. But then before you know it you’re putting out Pride-themed subway stations, which is the point at which I start rolling my eyes.

I have a mental image of there being about two out-gay employees at DAZ, and Management keep coming to them and going “What can we do to show we’re ‘woke’? How can we make some gay content?” And the employees sigh and try to explain that this isn’t easy, and that most of the visible differences between gay and straight people are either incredibly subtle or actually non-existent, but there are maybe one or two things … And then Management just goes “Fuck it, we’ll make some more Pride flags!” And then next thing anyone knows, they’re putting out a gay subway station.

There’s a deeper underlying problem too. Historically, a lot of DAZ’s advertising copy – and their content too – has been skin-crawlingly racist and sexist. Granted, there’s a complicated line between marketable archetypes and offensive stereotypes. But in the past, DAZ has often fallen down hard on the wrong side of that line. So perhaps they’re not starting from the best possible place.

I dunno. I’m glad they’re making the effort, but it bothers me that they aren’t doing a better job of it.

[RandoBean]

It’s true that Daz fails at even basic business practices. Man, do they suck sometimes.